Comments on: As it was in the beginning… http://liturgy.co.nz/as-it-was-in-the-beginning%e2%80%a6/3435 Worship that works - spirituality that connects Tue, 14 Feb 2012 02:09:16 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Robert McLean http://liturgy.co.nz/as-it-was-in-the-beginning%e2%80%a6/3435#comment-5719 Robert McLean Tue, 22 Jun 2010 02:36:09 +0000 http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/?p=3435#comment-5719 Regarding 'Communion' and 'Eucharist', I think the point to be made here is not so much that various Christians have various names for the rite, but that sometimes Communion is used by liturgists to describe that part of the rite where the consecrated elements are distributed (the 'Communion of the People'), as opposed to any other part of the Eucharist as a whole. So in that sense, yes, there is a difference between 'Communion' and 'Eucharist' Regarding ‘Communion’ and ‘Eucharist’, I think the point to be made here is not so much that various Christians have various names for the rite, but that sometimes Communion is used by liturgists to describe that part of the rite where the consecrated elements are distributed (the ‘Communion of the People’), as opposed to any other part of the Eucharist as a whole. So in that sense, yes, there is a difference between ‘Communion’ and ‘Eucharist’

]]> By: Bosco Peters http://liturgy.co.nz/as-it-was-in-the-beginning%e2%80%a6/3435#comment-5715 Bosco Peters Tue, 22 Jun 2010 00:39:26 +0000 http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/?p=3435#comment-5715 Thanks John for the invitation to clarify points that I have not made clear. You will understand this is a blog post – not a doctoral thesis. If you are looking for original sources, I would start by reading Chapters 66 and 67. I am not trying to “have it both ways.. hymn’s versus confessions, blessings and pardons”. You appear to think that I am arguing there were hymns. I think I must not be making my point clear which is that until relatively recently it wasn’t about singing at the liturgy – the liturgy was sung – as it still is in many traditions, including in many synagogues. My points are not merely arguments from silence. Justin is a very early source, but after him we have an increasing body of documents. I would, for example, be very interested if you could find an example of an absolution in any eucharistic liturgical text in the first millennia and a half of Christian history. The absence of an absolution in Justin is not an eccentric deviation, it is the norm for most of our Christian history. You ask: “Is “communion” and “Eucharist” different for you?” Please explain the question. There are many titles Christians use for the same service. I can find no evidence in Justin or subsequent documents of a lengthy, cluttered gathering rite as you indicate. Certainly people would have been mixing with each other and then the presider would have called everyone to attention and very soon they would be reading aloud “from the scriptures and from the writings of the apostles for as long as possible”. If you have any evidence of a longer formal gathering rite from those early centuries of Christianity, again I would be very interested to see them. Personally I am committed to the uncluttering of our gathering rite and the longer period spent on reading scripture than we had inherited from the Medieval and Reformation period. Thanks John for the invitation to clarify points that I have not made clear. You will understand this is a blog post – not a doctoral thesis.

If you are looking for original sources, I would start by reading Chapters 66 and 67.

I am not trying to “have it both ways.. hymn’s versus confessions, blessings and pardons”. You appear to think that I am arguing there were hymns. I think I must not be making my point clear which is that until relatively recently it wasn’t about singing at the liturgy – the liturgy was sung – as it still is in many traditions, including in many synagogues.

My points are not merely arguments from silence. Justin is a very early source, but after him we have an increasing body of documents. I would, for example, be very interested if you could find an example of an absolution in any eucharistic liturgical text in the first millennia and a half of Christian history. The absence of an absolution in Justin is not an eccentric deviation, it is the norm for most of our Christian history.

You ask: “Is “communion” and “Eucharist” different for you?” Please explain the question. There are many titles Christians use for the same service.

I can find no evidence in Justin or subsequent documents of a lengthy, cluttered gathering rite as you indicate. Certainly people would have been mixing with each other and then the presider would have called everyone to attention and very soon they would be reading aloud “from the scriptures and from the writings of the apostles for as long as possible”. If you have any evidence of a longer formal gathering rite from those early centuries of Christianity, again I would be very interested to see them. Personally I am committed to the uncluttering of our gathering rite and the longer period spent on reading scripture than we had inherited from the Medieval and Reformation period.

]]> By: Bosco Peters http://liturgy.co.nz/as-it-was-in-the-beginning%e2%80%a6/3435#comment-5714 Bosco Peters Mon, 21 Jun 2010 23:30:39 +0000 http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/?p=3435#comment-5714 What you are describing, David, I presume you draw from post-Constantinian times after Justin. I think it very helpful to see the procession beginning in our homes as you describe. The procession of the presider and other ministers needs also to be understood as coming from within the gathering congregation - I think that is lost if the presider and other ministers are not moving through the assembly that they are gathering. At the end of the service then they move back into that assembly and we process out into our daily lives for the service that follows the service. What you are describing, David, I presume you draw from post-Constantinian times after Justin. I think it very helpful to see the procession beginning in our homes as you describe. The procession of the presider and other ministers needs also to be understood as coming from within the gathering congregation – I think that is lost if the presider and other ministers are not moving through the assembly that they are gathering. At the end of the service then they move back into that assembly and we process out into our daily lives for the service that follows the service.

]]> By: Bosco Peters http://liturgy.co.nz/as-it-was-in-the-beginning%e2%80%a6/3435#comment-5712 Bosco Peters Mon, 21 Jun 2010 23:26:23 +0000 http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/?p=3435#comment-5712 Thanks Eddie. I have commented on your site also as you suggested. Thanks Eddie. I have commented on your site also as you suggested.

]]> By: David |dah•veed| http://liturgy.co.nz/as-it-was-in-the-beginning%e2%80%a6/3435#comment-5711 David |dah•veed| Mon, 21 Jun 2010 21:49:09 +0000 http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/?p=3435#comment-5711 It is my understanding that much of the singing of the early church was during the advent of the Procession. The procession was originally just the journey of the Saints from the suburbs to the central church and her bishop. Folks began walking from the far corners and villages on the outskirts of the city from many different starting points. As they journeyed inward more joined the procession as they sang songs, hymns and spiritual psalms. At major junctions smaller groups joined the main body until at last there was one large procession making the final steps of the journey together, singing and rejoicing in their common faith. It is my understanding that much of the singing of the early church was during the advent of the Procession. The procession was originally just the journey of the Saints from the suburbs to the central church and her bishop. Folks began walking from the far corners and villages on the outskirts of the city from many different starting points. As they journeyed inward more joined the procession as they sang songs, hymns and spiritual psalms. At major junctions smaller groups joined the main body until at last there was one large procession making the final steps of the journey together, singing and rejoicing in their common faith.

]]> By: Bosco Peters http://liturgy.co.nz/as-it-was-in-the-beginning%e2%80%a6/3435#comment-5710 Bosco Peters Mon, 21 Jun 2010 21:38:10 +0000 http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/?p=3435#comment-5710 Caelius, after Justin there are more and more detailed eucharistic liturgy texts, none with a creed, and all confirming my points. The place for a creed in the early church is the baptism rite, not the eucharist. What do you see as the function of a choir singing a creed? Are choir members declaring their faith to the congregation? Is it merely a nice piece of music ("Gospel-style") for the enjoyment of the audience? Does the assembly understand the choir as affirming the faith of all on their behalf? Caelius, after Justin there are more and more detailed eucharistic liturgy texts, none with a creed, and all confirming my points. The place for a creed in the early church is the baptism rite, not the eucharist.

What do you see as the function of a choir singing a creed? Are choir members declaring their faith to the congregation? Is it merely a nice piece of music (“Gospel-style”) for the enjoyment of the audience? Does the assembly understand the choir as affirming the faith of all on their behalf?

]]> By: James McLaren http://liturgy.co.nz/as-it-was-in-the-beginning%e2%80%a6/3435#comment-5709 James McLaren Mon, 21 Jun 2010 17:29:21 +0000 http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/?p=3435#comment-5709 Liturgical reform and renewal over the last few decades has been about returning to Justin’s graceful simplicity and allowing that to come alive in our own context. Not in England it hasn't. Common Worship is awful: it's long-winded, and it demands that we regard the president as a priest. I see red every time I spot that hateful rubric, <i>The <b>Giving</b> of Communion</i>. Liturgical reform and renewal over the last few decades has been about returning to Justin’s graceful simplicity and allowing that to come alive in our own context.

Not in England it hasn’t. Common Worship is awful: it’s long-winded, and it demands that we regard the president as a priest. I see red every time I spot that hateful rubric, The Giving of Communion.

]]> By: Caelius Spinator http://liturgy.co.nz/as-it-was-in-the-beginning%e2%80%a6/3435#comment-5708 Caelius Spinator Mon, 21 Jun 2010 16:26:21 +0000 http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/?p=3435#comment-5708 I would disagree with one of your arguments from silence: the omission of a creed. There's plenty of evidence from the Epistles of hymns interposed by Paul (possibly his own work, possibly of others). One of these hymns in particular, Colossians 1:15-20, has very familiar-looking credal material. I wouldn't be surprised if the recitation of one of the creeds in the Eucharist originated from an older practice of a credal hymn. There's a church on the South Side of Chicago whose choir does a great job of rendering the Nicene Creed into a Gospel-style hymn. I would disagree with one of your arguments from silence: the omission of a creed. There’s plenty of evidence from the Epistles of hymns interposed by Paul (possibly his own work, possibly of others). One of these hymns in particular, Colossians 1:15-20, has very familiar-looking credal material. I wouldn’t be surprised if the recitation of one of the creeds in the Eucharist originated from an older practice of a credal hymn. There’s a church on the South Side of Chicago whose choir does a great job of rendering the Nicene Creed into a Gospel-style hymn.

]]> By: John D. Palmer http://liturgy.co.nz/as-it-was-in-the-beginning%e2%80%a6/3435#comment-5707 John D. Palmer Mon, 21 Jun 2010 15:32:55 +0000 http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/?p=3435#comment-5707 Do you remember which chapter from Justin's First Apology you have drawn this excerpt? I resonate with Maggi's question. I'm not sure that you can have it both ways without some supporting documentation as to your argument out of silence. Give us some supporting thoughts on why you are convinced of your points about hymn's versus confessions, blessings and pardons. Is "communion" and "Eucharist" different for you? Please explain the difference. I think its fair to say based on Justin's description of this day of worship that this was indeed a "day" of worship. People came from "far and near" the implication is that "gathering" time was not exact, meaning they spent more than a few minutes "gathering". They read from the "the scriptures" and the "writings of the Apostles" for "as long as they could". Again there isn't a set time limit like we have become accustomed to in the West. So this Sunday was likely one that went on throughout the whole day and into evening. What texts are "the Scriptures" and what texts are "the writings of the Apostles"? How much access did the community that Justin worshiped with have to "different" scripture and writings of the Apostles? I'm looking into all this myself they were just questions that were spurred by your post. I like the notion of simplicity in our worship something that is important. However I'm not sure its accurate to assume that the movement of worship didn't have all of the elements that we incorporate into them. I think that there's a good possibility that First Century worship included many more elements than we incorporate into our regular weekly hour of worship. Do you remember which chapter from Justin’s First Apology you have drawn this excerpt?

I resonate with Maggi’s question. I’m not sure that you can have it both ways without some supporting documentation as to your argument out of silence. Give us some supporting thoughts on why you are convinced of your points about hymn’s versus confessions, blessings and pardons. Is “communion” and “Eucharist” different for you? Please explain the difference.

I think its fair to say based on Justin’s description of this day of worship that this was indeed a “day” of worship. People came from “far and near” the implication is that “gathering” time was not exact, meaning they spent more than a few minutes “gathering”. They read from the “the scriptures” and the “writings of the Apostles” for “as long as they could”. Again there isn’t a set time limit like we have become accustomed to in the West. So this Sunday was likely one that went on throughout the whole day and into evening. What texts are “the Scriptures” and what texts are “the writings of the Apostles”? How much access did the community that Justin worshiped with have to “different” scripture and writings of the Apostles?

I’m looking into all this myself they were just questions that were spurred by your post.

I like the notion of simplicity in our worship something that is important. However I’m not sure its accurate to assume that the movement of worship didn’t have all of the elements that we incorporate into them. I think that there’s a good possibility that First Century worship included many more elements than we incorporate into our regular weekly hour of worship.

]]> By: eddie broussard http://liturgy.co.nz/as-it-was-in-the-beginning%e2%80%a6/3435#comment-5703 eddie broussard Mon, 21 Jun 2010 11:50:08 +0000 http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/?p=3435#comment-5703 Thank you for this post. I have been on a journey to understand better, the early church…and you have helped me here. I do not come from a liturgical background but have been drawn to it lately. I wrote a post a couple of weeks ago on the Eucharist and would be interested to have you read it and comment. Thanks again for all you do to help understand the glory of our Father. http://www.ebroussard.com/2010/06/eucharist/ Thank you for this post. I have been on a journey to understand better, the early church…and you have helped me here. I do not come from a liturgical background but have been drawn to it lately. I wrote a post a couple of weeks ago on the Eucharist and would be interested to have you read it and comment. Thanks again for all you do to help understand the glory of our Father.

http://www.ebroussard.com/2010/06/eucharist/

]]> By: Bosco Peters http://liturgy.co.nz/as-it-was-in-the-beginning%e2%80%a6/3435#comment-5701 Bosco Peters Mon, 21 Jun 2010 09:23:10 +0000 http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/?p=3435#comment-5701 A good point, Maggi. The "argument from silence" is always fraught. I think we in the West particularly have become so quickly & relatively recently used to non-chanting prayers and readings that we are surprised when we go to a synagogue or Orthodox Church where the tradition of chanting prayers and readings continues. We have also very quickly become used to having hymns inserted into the Eucharist. No one in the early church is writing "we don't have a blessing, we don't have an absolution, we don't have hymns" I suspect because they wouldn't have thought of inserting them. Nor would they write, "we chant the prayers" because they wouldn't have thought of doing otherwise. It is hard to trace exact historical developments arguing from silence, but until someone can demonstrate otherwise, I'm very convinced to hold to my points. A good point, Maggi. The “argument from silence” is always fraught. I think we in the West particularly have become so quickly & relatively recently used to non-chanting prayers and readings that we are surprised when we go to a synagogue or Orthodox Church where the tradition of chanting prayers and readings continues. We have also very quickly become used to having hymns inserted into the Eucharist. No one in the early church is writing “we don’t have a blessing, we don’t have an absolution, we don’t have hymns” I suspect because they wouldn’t have thought of inserting them. Nor would they write, “we chant the prayers” because they wouldn’t have thought of doing otherwise. It is hard to trace exact historical developments arguing from silence, but until someone can demonstrate otherwise, I’m very convinced to hold to my points.

]]> By: maggi http://liturgy.co.nz/as-it-was-in-the-beginning%e2%80%a6/3435#comment-5700 maggi Mon, 21 Jun 2010 07:39:30 +0000 http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/?p=3435#comment-5700 Very nice post, Bosco! thank you. I'm curious: you say "The lack of a mention of hymns does not mean there was no music." - but could the same apply to blessings or confessions? or do we know for sure there weren't any? Very nice post, Bosco! thank you.

I’m curious: you say “The lack of a mention of hymns does not mean there was no music.” – but could the same apply to blessings or confessions? or do we know for sure there weren’t any?

]]> By: Peter Carrell http://liturgy.co.nz/as-it-was-in-the-beginning%e2%80%a6/3435#comment-5695 Peter Carrell Mon, 21 Jun 2010 03:05:47 +0000 http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/?p=3435#comment-5695 Lovely post, Bosco :) Lovely post, Bosco :)

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