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	<title>Comments on: per saltum ordination</title>
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	<link>http://liturgy.co.nz/per-saltum-ordination/2297</link>
	<description>Worship that works - spirituality that connects</description>
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		<title>By: Bosco Peters</title>
		<link>http://liturgy.co.nz/per-saltum-ordination/2297#comment-15340</link>
		<dc:creator>Bosco Peters</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Feb 2012 17:28:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/?p=2297#comment-15340</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Steve. Which diocese/province has this per saltum ordination? And have others been ordained like this, or are you the exception? Blessings.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Steve. Which diocese/province has this per saltum ordination? And have others been ordained like this, or are you the exception? Blessings.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://liturgy.co.nz/per-saltum-ordination/2297#comment-15337</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Feb 2012 12:45:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/?p=2297#comment-15337</guid>
		<description>This comment string is a bit old but I have just found it.  If anyone is still notified of comments here is mine: I was ordained in the Baptist church and after years of ordaine dministry moved to the Anglicanism.  When I made that move I was ordained per saltum.  I really do not see the point of a &quot;transitional&quot; diaconate.  In the NT priests were ordained and deacons selected.  Why one is now seen as a stepping stone to the other is beyond me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This comment string is a bit old but I have just found it.  If anyone is still notified of comments here is mine: I was ordained in the Baptist church and after years of ordaine dministry moved to the Anglicanism.  When I made that move I was ordained per saltum.  I really do not see the point of a &#8220;transitional&#8221; diaconate.  In the NT priests were ordained and deacons selected.  Why one is now seen as a stepping stone to the other is beyond me.</p>
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		<title>By: Bosco Peters</title>
		<link>http://liturgy.co.nz/per-saltum-ordination/2297#comment-4770</link>
		<dc:creator>Bosco Peters</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Apr 2010 04:10:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/?p=2297#comment-4770</guid>
		<description>Doug, I think you make some &lt;em&gt;&lt;strong&gt;very&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/em&gt; important points. Especially, I would like to highlight, we are &lt;em&gt;&lt;strong&gt;all&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/em&gt; called to service through our baptism - &lt;em&gt;&lt;strong&gt;not&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/em&gt; through ordination.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Doug, I think you make some <em><strong>very</strong></em> important points. Especially, I would like to highlight, we are <em><strong>all</strong></em> called to service through our baptism &#8211; <em><strong>not</strong></em> through ordination.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug Morrison-Cleary</title>
		<link>http://liturgy.co.nz/per-saltum-ordination/2297#comment-4763</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug Morrison-Cleary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Apr 2010 22:56:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/?p=2297#comment-4763</guid>
		<description>My original ordination to the presbyterate was per saltum in the Uniting Church in Australia. That was the ministry I believed I was being called to exercise and the church concurred with that. However, I seriously considered the diaconate and almost chose that direction before being sure of the direction to which I was being called.

For me, sequential ordination not only devalues the diaconate, but it also devalues the baptismal covenant! If I need to be ordained a deacon before becoming a presbyter so that I can experience &#039;servant ministry&#039; or learn an &#039;outward, world facing perspective&#039; then I have failed to be formed in the baptismal covenant. Ordination as a deacon is a poor way of correcting that problem!

As for who will proclaim the gospel if we don&#039;t have enough deacons after switching to per saltum ordination... then we don&#039;t proclaim the gospel until we **get** it!

Of course, as I moved into the Anglican Communion, I experienced sequential ordination. I did assist my bishop on a couple of occasions, but was in the somewhat unique position of working/being called before and after as the pastor of a Lutheran/Presbyterian congregation. So, for 6 months I was pastor and presided at the eucharist as a presbyter in the Uniting Church in Australia. Then I was ordained a deacon in The Episcopal Church, remained pastor but could no longer preside at the eucharist. Then was ordained a priest and, once again, could preside... How&#039;s that for a very odd transition!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My original ordination to the presbyterate was per saltum in the Uniting Church in Australia. That was the ministry I believed I was being called to exercise and the church concurred with that. However, I seriously considered the diaconate and almost chose that direction before being sure of the direction to which I was being called.</p>
<p>For me, sequential ordination not only devalues the diaconate, but it also devalues the baptismal covenant! If I need to be ordained a deacon before becoming a presbyter so that I can experience &#8216;servant ministry&#8217; or learn an &#8216;outward, world facing perspective&#8217; then I have failed to be formed in the baptismal covenant. Ordination as a deacon is a poor way of correcting that problem!</p>
<p>As for who will proclaim the gospel if we don&#8217;t have enough deacons after switching to per saltum ordination&#8230; then we don&#8217;t proclaim the gospel until we **get** it!</p>
<p>Of course, as I moved into the Anglican Communion, I experienced sequential ordination. I did assist my bishop on a couple of occasions, but was in the somewhat unique position of working/being called before and after as the pastor of a Lutheran/Presbyterian congregation. So, for 6 months I was pastor and presided at the eucharist as a presbyter in the Uniting Church in Australia. Then I was ordained a deacon in The Episcopal Church, remained pastor but could no longer preside at the eucharist. Then was ordained a priest and, once again, could preside&#8230; How&#8217;s that for a very odd transition!</p>
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		<title>By: Monika</title>
		<link>http://liturgy.co.nz/per-saltum-ordination/2297#comment-4042</link>
		<dc:creator>Monika</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 03:58:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/?p=2297#comment-4042</guid>
		<description>My rather unorthodox view is there is one call and that is to follow Jesus.  How we play that out in our lives differs.  My sad experience is there are too many deacons and priests who are out for job validation - they&#039;ve lost their vision and therefore their call. The future of faith is more rooted in the past - we will have a non-denominational priesthood of all believers. This is happening now with the enormous attrition rate from attendance at regular &quot;churchy&quot; services in lieu of personal accountability - even if that accountability is exchanged between Christians and non-Christians.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My rather unorthodox view is there is one call and that is to follow Jesus.  How we play that out in our lives differs.  My sad experience is there are too many deacons and priests who are out for job validation &#8211; they&#8217;ve lost their vision and therefore their call. The future of faith is more rooted in the past &#8211; we will have a non-denominational priesthood of all believers. This is happening now with the enormous attrition rate from attendance at regular &#8220;churchy&#8221; services in lieu of personal accountability &#8211; even if that accountability is exchanged between Christians and non-Christians.</p>
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		<title>By: Bosco Peters</title>
		<link>http://liturgy.co.nz/per-saltum-ordination/2297#comment-3616</link>
		<dc:creator>Bosco Peters</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Feb 2010 00:12:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/?p=2297#comment-3616</guid>
		<description>Thanks Liz for your thoughtful comment. I&#039;m interested in your final point: &quot;I believe we are all called to be deacons.&quot; I think that is a pro-per saltum comment - because you are highlighting that we are all called, through our baptism, to the service you describe as &quot;I cannot imagine standing behind the altar and preaching the Good News, and then not going out into the world to act on it&quot;. So if we are all already called to that in our baptism, it would seem that we do not require an extra ordination to that. Maybe being ordained to be a deacon is something else than the service we are called to in baptism, the living out of the Good News we are all called to in baptism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Liz for your thoughtful comment. I&#8217;m interested in your final point: &#8220;I believe we are all called to be deacons.&#8221; I think that is a pro-per saltum comment &#8211; because you are highlighting that we are all called, through our baptism, to the service you describe as &#8220;I cannot imagine standing behind the altar and preaching the Good News, and then not going out into the world to act on it&#8221;. So if we are all already called to that in our baptism, it would seem that we do not require an extra ordination to that. Maybe being ordained to be a deacon is something else than the service we are called to in baptism, the living out of the Good News we are all called to in baptism.</p>
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		<title>By: Liz Sims</title>
		<link>http://liturgy.co.nz/per-saltum-ordination/2297#comment-3614</link>
		<dc:creator>Liz Sims</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Feb 2010 00:04:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/?p=2297#comment-3614</guid>
		<description>I love that priests are ordained as deacons before they are ordained as priests. It pains me that some don&#039;t necessarily know what they are being ordained to, and it is good that some read up on it and become good deacons first. I felt and feel only called to the diaconate, because I cannot imagine standing behind the altar and preaching the Good News, and then not going out into the world to act on it. It makes no sense to me. One priest told me that he believes that he took on the mantle of the deacon and then added the mantle of the priest. That I understand much better... and the deacon has the huge privilege of not adding all those extra tasks to a quite full plate. Priests are called to a very special role in the church. I believe we are all called to be deacons.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love that priests are ordained as deacons before they are ordained as priests. It pains me that some don&#8217;t necessarily know what they are being ordained to, and it is good that some read up on it and become good deacons first. I felt and feel only called to the diaconate, because I cannot imagine standing behind the altar and preaching the Good News, and then not going out into the world to act on it. It makes no sense to me. One priest told me that he believes that he took on the mantle of the deacon and then added the mantle of the priest. That I understand much better&#8230; and the deacon has the huge privilege of not adding all those extra tasks to a quite full plate. Priests are called to a very special role in the church. I believe we are all called to be deacons.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Hayes</title>
		<link>http://liturgy.co.nz/per-saltum-ordination/2297#comment-3503</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Hayes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 03:44:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/?p=2297#comment-3503</guid>
		<description>Concerning training for deacons: at one time the University of South Africa, where I was at various times both a student and a teacher, offered the degree of Bachelor of Diaconology. Unfortunately it was only available to students who were registered at the Huguenot College, Wellington -- a special concession that the theology caculty were trying to eliminate.

When I was on an Anglican commission to investigate the diaconate (see other comment above) I urged them to make the degree available to all students and suggested that the essence of it should be that it was interdisciplinary -- that students would take some theological courses, and some courses from other faculties, arts, or economics or science or whatever. So a deacon could study both theology and, say, community development, or accountancy, or whatever.

The advantage of a priest serving as a deacon for a period is that a priest should, in theory, then be familiar with the liturgical duties of a deacon and should know what to do when serving with a deacon. In practice it doesn&#039;t work like that very often. Many service books have been printed with the deacon&#039;s parts assigned to the priest, because it is assumed that the absence of a deacon is the norm. So even when there is a deacon present, the priest still does the deacon&#039;s bits.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Concerning training for deacons: at one time the University of South Africa, where I was at various times both a student and a teacher, offered the degree of Bachelor of Diaconology. Unfortunately it was only available to students who were registered at the Huguenot College, Wellington &#8212; a special concession that the theology caculty were trying to eliminate.</p>
<p>When I was on an Anglican commission to investigate the diaconate (see other comment above) I urged them to make the degree available to all students and suggested that the essence of it should be that it was interdisciplinary &#8212; that students would take some theological courses, and some courses from other faculties, arts, or economics or science or whatever. So a deacon could study both theology and, say, community development, or accountancy, or whatever.</p>
<p>The advantage of a priest serving as a deacon for a period is that a priest should, in theory, then be familiar with the liturgical duties of a deacon and should know what to do when serving with a deacon. In practice it doesn&#8217;t work like that very often. Many service books have been printed with the deacon&#8217;s parts assigned to the priest, because it is assumed that the absence of a deacon is the norm. So even when there is a deacon present, the priest still does the deacon&#8217;s bits.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://liturgy.co.nz/per-saltum-ordination/2297#comment-3426</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 15:30:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/?p=2297#comment-3426</guid>
		<description>I think we need to have a clearer understanding of the three orders of ordained ministry and specifically priests and deacons. My own diaconate was transitional to the priesthood. I felt called to the priesthood not the diaconate. I and most of the parish in which I served as a deacon saw me as a priest during a probationary period - a priest who could not yet do priestly things!There was no real effort to form me as a deacon or for me to serve as a &quot;real&quot; deacon. The transitional diaconate seems to diminish the integrity and ministry of vocational deacons. I would welcome a serious study and consideration of direct ordination but there are several areas on which we need to focus: how to discern between priestly and diaconal vocations, salary and benefits, what does a deacon do that a lay person fully exercising their baptism does not do, mentoring and spiritual formation of priests just out of seminary, is there a formational benefit for a priest to serve as a deacon or is it, as Bosco asked, just time spent, what type of theological education and formation will be required of deacons. These are just a few that come to mind. I look forward to a continued discussion of this matter. Peace, Mike</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think we need to have a clearer understanding of the three orders of ordained ministry and specifically priests and deacons. My own diaconate was transitional to the priesthood. I felt called to the priesthood not the diaconate. I and most of the parish in which I served as a deacon saw me as a priest during a probationary period &#8211; a priest who could not yet do priestly things!There was no real effort to form me as a deacon or for me to serve as a &#8220;real&#8221; deacon. The transitional diaconate seems to diminish the integrity and ministry of vocational deacons. I would welcome a serious study and consideration of direct ordination but there are several areas on which we need to focus: how to discern between priestly and diaconal vocations, salary and benefits, what does a deacon do that a lay person fully exercising their baptism does not do, mentoring and spiritual formation of priests just out of seminary, is there a formational benefit for a priest to serve as a deacon or is it, as Bosco asked, just time spent, what type of theological education and formation will be required of deacons. These are just a few that come to mind. I look forward to a continued discussion of this matter. Peace, Mike</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://liturgy.co.nz/per-saltum-ordination/2297#comment-3415</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 05:35:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/?p=2297#comment-3415</guid>
		<description>Thanks Fr. Bosco,

For raising this issue. I could not decide on which way to vote. I agree with some of the observations above that there is a slice of ordinands-to-be (and ordinands) who are rather cynical of the process, and disdainful of the order of the diaconate. Per saltum ordination is a way to disentangle the orders from this distortion.

On the other hand, liturgically at the eucharist, I find the roles of diakonia and prebytery to be very meaningful and fruitful for meditation. At St. Gregory&#039;s Abbey, a Benedictine Episcopal monastery in Michigan, and at St. Andrew&#039;s Abbey, a Roman Catholic Benedictine monastery in California, where I have taken retreats, it is interesting and fruitful to watch and contemplate on the rotation of liturgical roles among the priests/deacons, including the Abbot, at mass.

So, yes and no. I suppose the real question is should reforms seek to structurally obviate particular abuses by obliteration of relationships, or should reforms seek to foster more fruitful paths and disincline from more unfruitful paths. Sorry to have perhaps created a false dichotomy, but I would opt for more of the latter and less of the former. The former usually being unsuccessful, and by the law of unintended consequences to create a new set of abuses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Fr. Bosco,</p>
<p>For raising this issue. I could not decide on which way to vote. I agree with some of the observations above that there is a slice of ordinands-to-be (and ordinands) who are rather cynical of the process, and disdainful of the order of the diaconate. Per saltum ordination is a way to disentangle the orders from this distortion.</p>
<p>On the other hand, liturgically at the eucharist, I find the roles of diakonia and prebytery to be very meaningful and fruitful for meditation. At St. Gregory&#8217;s Abbey, a Benedictine Episcopal monastery in Michigan, and at St. Andrew&#8217;s Abbey, a Roman Catholic Benedictine monastery in California, where I have taken retreats, it is interesting and fruitful to watch and contemplate on the rotation of liturgical roles among the priests/deacons, including the Abbot, at mass.</p>
<p>So, yes and no. I suppose the real question is should reforms seek to structurally obviate particular abuses by obliteration of relationships, or should reforms seek to foster more fruitful paths and disincline from more unfruitful paths. Sorry to have perhaps created a false dichotomy, but I would opt for more of the latter and less of the former. The former usually being unsuccessful, and by the law of unintended consequences to create a new set of abuses.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Butler</title>
		<link>http://liturgy.co.nz/per-saltum-ordination/2297#comment-3398</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Butler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Feb 2010 00:33:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/?p=2297#comment-3398</guid>
		<description>Karl Rahner, of happy memory, had some very interesting observations on both the restoration of the diaconate and the whole sacrament of Holy Orders.  He maintained that the church had been bequeathed the sacrament of Order by Christ, and that the three fold orders of ordained ministry were ancient enough that it should not be tampered with, but that the Church was free to re-assign responsibilities within these orders so as best to serve the pastoral needs of the People of God and the call of the Church to build up God&#039;s reign.  
This puts a different slant on questions of &quot;validity&quot;, and calls us to &quot;worry first about the Reign of God..&quot; as we have been commanded.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Karl Rahner, of happy memory, had some very interesting observations on both the restoration of the diaconate and the whole sacrament of Holy Orders.  He maintained that the church had been bequeathed the sacrament of Order by Christ, and that the three fold orders of ordained ministry were ancient enough that it should not be tampered with, but that the Church was free to re-assign responsibilities within these orders so as best to serve the pastoral needs of the People of God and the call of the Church to build up God&#8217;s reign.<br />
This puts a different slant on questions of &#8220;validity&#8221;, and calls us to &#8220;worry first about the Reign of God..&#8221; as we have been commanded.</p>
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		<title>By: Joel</title>
		<link>http://liturgy.co.nz/per-saltum-ordination/2297#comment-3393</link>
		<dc:creator>Joel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 19:03:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/?p=2297#comment-3393</guid>
		<description>From my tradition (United Church of Christ &amp; Christian Church Disciples of Christ) we practice exclusively per saltum ordinations. We have licensed ministries which function with [some] similarity to deacons in other traditions. Licensed ministry is often, but not always, a stepping stone to ordained ministry; but it is not (sadly, I think) considered an ordination.

I think one of the places we need more reflection is the recognition of ordinations other than what we call &quot;ordained ministers&quot; aka presbyters. In our tradition deacons are commissioned from a local church for a temporary time. I think we would benefit from discerning calls to a permanent diaconate; and the relation of diaconate to &quot;ordained ministry&quot;.

Thanks for raising this issue, I always appreciate the opportunity to reflect on it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From my tradition (United Church of Christ &amp; Christian Church Disciples of Christ) we practice exclusively per saltum ordinations. We have licensed ministries which function with [some] similarity to deacons in other traditions. Licensed ministry is often, but not always, a stepping stone to ordained ministry; but it is not (sadly, I think) considered an ordination.</p>
<p>I think one of the places we need more reflection is the recognition of ordinations other than what we call &#8220;ordained ministers&#8221; aka presbyters. In our tradition deacons are commissioned from a local church for a temporary time. I think we would benefit from discerning calls to a permanent diaconate; and the relation of diaconate to &#8220;ordained ministry&#8221;.</p>
<p>Thanks for raising this issue, I always appreciate the opportunity to reflect on it.</p>
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		<title>By: Cindy Long</title>
		<link>http://liturgy.co.nz/per-saltum-ordination/2297#comment-3392</link>
		<dc:creator>Cindy Long</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 17:50:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/?p=2297#comment-3392</guid>
		<description>It is not that I do not think that it is important for a priest to get to know what a deacon&#039;s ministry is. However, to do it for 6 mos is to barely get a taste of it- and that is if the person takes it seriously. I have seen transitional deacons who simply use this time as a pre priest training time and a time to search for a position as a priest. I have also heard whispered jokes among priests and ordinands at transitional diaconate ordinations to &quot;be sure and cross your fingers when asked if you are called to be a deacon&quot;. 
As a deacon I have experienced the inequities of working side by side with a transitional deacon. In our diocese it is a requirement that transitional deacons be paid, whereas deacons are non stipendary.If they want to be a deacon it should be the full experience.  
To me, if it is really thought that a priest needs a special time of training in addition to seminary that role should be called &quot;transitional priest&quot;. They can spend some time with  deacons learning that end of things and some time with priests,preparing further for the role to which they have been called. 
That would help clear up misunderstandings about the role of the deacon which is all too often seen by both ordained and laity as a lesser order and a stepping stone. Deacons are frequently asked when we are going to &quot;move up&quot; to the priesthood. This does make for good opportunities to explain the diaconal call,and how we work together as a complementary team with priests. But for a person who feels truly called to be a &quot;world facing&quot; deacon it is disheartening that the order is not respected in its own right. I think direct ordination, or the concept of &quot;transitional priests&quot; would go a long way to help this situation on many levels.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is not that I do not think that it is important for a priest to get to know what a deacon&#8217;s ministry is. However, to do it for 6 mos is to barely get a taste of it- and that is if the person takes it seriously. I have seen transitional deacons who simply use this time as a pre priest training time and a time to search for a position as a priest. I have also heard whispered jokes among priests and ordinands at transitional diaconate ordinations to &#8220;be sure and cross your fingers when asked if you are called to be a deacon&#8221;.<br />
As a deacon I have experienced the inequities of working side by side with a transitional deacon. In our diocese it is a requirement that transitional deacons be paid, whereas deacons are non stipendary.If they want to be a deacon it should be the full experience.<br />
To me, if it is really thought that a priest needs a special time of training in addition to seminary that role should be called &#8220;transitional priest&#8221;. They can spend some time with  deacons learning that end of things and some time with priests,preparing further for the role to which they have been called.<br />
That would help clear up misunderstandings about the role of the deacon which is all too often seen by both ordained and laity as a lesser order and a stepping stone. Deacons are frequently asked when we are going to &#8220;move up&#8221; to the priesthood. This does make for good opportunities to explain the diaconal call,and how we work together as a complementary team with priests. But for a person who feels truly called to be a &#8220;world facing&#8221; deacon it is disheartening that the order is not respected in its own right. I think direct ordination, or the concept of &#8220;transitional priests&#8221; would go a long way to help this situation on many levels.</p>
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		<title>By: Amelia Hagen</title>
		<link>http://liturgy.co.nz/per-saltum-ordination/2297#comment-3391</link>
		<dc:creator>Amelia Hagen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 15:57:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/?p=2297#comment-3391</guid>
		<description>I have known lots and lots of vocational deacons, probably more than 50 who are deeply committed to serving Christ in the world.  I have known 3 or 4 who went into the diaconate, even though they felt they should be priests, primarily because they didn&#039;t or wouldn&#039;t do the extra studies required. It seems to me that their lack of calling shows in their ministry. In Maine, the distinction is made between transitional deacons and deacons. The more deacons a diocese has and the better job they do in training congregations in what the diaconate is all about, the less problem there seems to be in considering deacons as a full and separate order.  I love having a deacon at the altar with me and have served with deacons in Michigan, California and Maine.  

I personally would like per saltum ordination, but realize this is controversial.  My time as a transitional deacon was only six months.  I used the time to train in interim ministry and teach children in our parish.  As a late vocation person who had served on a vestry, was a senior warden, sang in the choir, trained accolytes, wrote church bulletins, cooked for the homeless and had a busy professional life as a scientist/manager I felt ready to take on my first interim after that six months.  I realized though that that first call needed to be in a relatively healthy parish and asked the bishop that question. If I had been ordained directly to the priesthood, I still would have needed that training.  Fortunately it required a period of supervision.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have known lots and lots of vocational deacons, probably more than 50 who are deeply committed to serving Christ in the world.  I have known 3 or 4 who went into the diaconate, even though they felt they should be priests, primarily because they didn&#8217;t or wouldn&#8217;t do the extra studies required. It seems to me that their lack of calling shows in their ministry. In Maine, the distinction is made between transitional deacons and deacons. The more deacons a diocese has and the better job they do in training congregations in what the diaconate is all about, the less problem there seems to be in considering deacons as a full and separate order.  I love having a deacon at the altar with me and have served with deacons in Michigan, California and Maine.  </p>
<p>I personally would like per saltum ordination, but realize this is controversial.  My time as a transitional deacon was only six months.  I used the time to train in interim ministry and teach children in our parish.  As a late vocation person who had served on a vestry, was a senior warden, sang in the choir, trained accolytes, wrote church bulletins, cooked for the homeless and had a busy professional life as a scientist/manager I felt ready to take on my first interim after that six months.  I realized though that that first call needed to be in a relatively healthy parish and asked the bishop that question. If I had been ordained directly to the priesthood, I still would have needed that training.  Fortunately it required a period of supervision.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Hayes</title>
		<link>http://liturgy.co.nz/per-saltum-ordination/2297#comment-3388</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Hayes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 10:53:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.liturgy.co.nz/blog/?p=2297#comment-3388</guid>
		<description>Forty years ago I was coming to the end of my time at an Anglican seminary, and realised that within a month or two I would probably be ordained a deacon, and I didn&#039;t have a clue what a deacon was supposed to be or do. I&#039;d seen lots of priests, but very few deacons. So I quickly started reading whatever I could find in the college library to find out about deacons, and after reading it, thought I would rather be a deacon than a priest. 

After a couple of years I was oerdained as an Anglican priest mainly because I was visiting congregations 130 miles away in Namibia, and no priests would go to them. 

Some years later I was on an Anglican provincial commission to examine the diaconate, because nobody knew what it was. We met for three years at great expense, and produced a report that was brushed aside by the provincial synod. They regarded the diaconate as superfluous and unnecessary (&quot;lay ministers can do everything that deacons do&quot;) but decided that women should be ordained to this unnecessary ministry. That&#039;s when I realised that the Anglican Church had in fact (with a few eccentric exceptions, like me) abandoned ideas of the three-fold ministry, apostolic succession and all that goes with it. That&#039;s when I left to become Orthodox. 

After a few years, with some reluctance, I allowed the bishop to tonsure me as a Reader, and eventually ordain me as a deacon. I saw my ministry primarily as evangelism and chuch planting, and training lay worship leaders. But St Stephen and St Philip were both deacons and evanglists, so the ministries could be combined. Every now and again the bishop asks me if I&#039;m ready to be ordained as a priest, and I keep telling him no. I tell him that she shortage of deacons is more serious than the shortage of priests. There are more parishes with no deacons than there are parishes with no priests. I think he regards me as almost as eccentric as the Anglicans did. 

But the deacon doesn&#039;t exactly face the world. The deacon faces both ways.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Forty years ago I was coming to the end of my time at an Anglican seminary, and realised that within a month or two I would probably be ordained a deacon, and I didn&#8217;t have a clue what a deacon was supposed to be or do. I&#8217;d seen lots of priests, but very few deacons. So I quickly started reading whatever I could find in the college library to find out about deacons, and after reading it, thought I would rather be a deacon than a priest. </p>
<p>After a couple of years I was oerdained as an Anglican priest mainly because I was visiting congregations 130 miles away in Namibia, and no priests would go to them. </p>
<p>Some years later I was on an Anglican provincial commission to examine the diaconate, because nobody knew what it was. We met for three years at great expense, and produced a report that was brushed aside by the provincial synod. They regarded the diaconate as superfluous and unnecessary (&#8220;lay ministers can do everything that deacons do&#8221;) but decided that women should be ordained to this unnecessary ministry. That&#8217;s when I realised that the Anglican Church had in fact (with a few eccentric exceptions, like me) abandoned ideas of the three-fold ministry, apostolic succession and all that goes with it. That&#8217;s when I left to become Orthodox. </p>
<p>After a few years, with some reluctance, I allowed the bishop to tonsure me as a Reader, and eventually ordain me as a deacon. I saw my ministry primarily as evangelism and chuch planting, and training lay worship leaders. But St Stephen and St Philip were both deacons and evanglists, so the ministries could be combined. Every now and again the bishop asks me if I&#8217;m ready to be ordained as a priest, and I keep telling him no. I tell him that she shortage of deacons is more serious than the shortage of priests. There are more parishes with no deacons than there are parishes with no priests. I think he regards me as almost as eccentric as the Anglicans did. </p>
<p>But the deacon doesn&#8217;t exactly face the world. The deacon faces both ways.</p>
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