Interesting reactions to the use of the word “shit” in “Shit people say to ministers“. Almost as if saying “shit” is unbiblical. It’s actually quite the opposite. Saint Paul, in his letter to the Philippians (3:8) wrote
ἀλλὰ μενοῦνγε καὶ ἡγοῦμαι πάντα ζημίαν εἶναι διὰ τὸ ὑπερέχον τῆς γνώσεως Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ τοῦ κυρίου μου, διὃν τὰ πάντα ἐζημιώθην, καὶ ἡγοῦμαι σκύβαλα, ἵνα Χριστὸν κερδήσω…
If your Greek is a bit rusty, there’s no point in reaching for your English translation (straight from the culture that uses the euphemisms “going to the Rest Room” – I think it’s a pretty weird place to rest!, “going to the bathroom” – still looking for that bath there!…)
Here’s what Saint Paul says:
But indeed I also regard everything to be loss on account of the surpassing knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, on account of whom I have suffered the loss of all things; and I consider them shit so that I may gain Christ…
Yep – σκύβαλα (skubala) = shit.
Not the nice excrement, dung, or poop. In Saint Paul’s day σκύβαλα/shit was used in polite conversation about as much as we use it now. He is being very vulgar.
One of the top scholarly lexicons of Greek words A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd Edition
…I forfeited all things; and I consider them crap so that I may gain Christ…
If I quoted the scatological references, say, from Martin Luther, some would never return to this site again! In 1521, the Cardinal of Mainz said in Luther’s presence, “I know very well that without God’s grace there is nothing good in me, and that without God’s grace I am as much a piece of useless, stinking shit as anyone else, if not more.”
It sometimes can appear as if the church’s primary role is to make people prim and proper. That catechesis is about knowing which fork to use. That the body is a nuisance God is liberating us from. That clergy are employed to prevent swearing. That there are good words and bad words, good people and bad people. Good people go to church, and know how to behave properly in church, and dress properly, and only use proper words, and go to bathrooms and rest rooms.
How down-to-earth is your spirituality? How down-to-earth is your God? Would your God say “shit”? If not – what’s it doing in the Bible?!
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After the bad news , take note of the good news @
chapter 4:8f. ! That is what St. Paul wants us to remember !
I wish I could share this post with Dad. He would’ve loved it. He studied NT Greek (he would call me θυγατέρα). I looked up his Greek parallel New Testament – it’s “rubbish/refuse” there too. Isn’t language fascinating? Another great post. Thank you, Bosco!
Thanks for the encouragement, Annelise. Blessings.
So what’s the poop on the website, then?
Susie sits shining shoes.
My Greek is so rusty it’s non-existent. FYI Google translate is pretty useless too. Good post though.
Claudia, I think Google translate is getting better and better all the time. I remember the days when you’d translate back and forth into a language to see how well it worked and “The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak” came back as “The gin is fine but the meat has gone off”. Blessings.
In this case I suspect Google translate is struggling with ancient greek instead of modern greek – half the words didn’t even attempt to translate:
but he menounge lead zimίan all things are under the yperέchon gnώseos of Christ Jesus the Lord my dione ezimiώthin of all things, and lead skύvala, in order that Christ kerdήso
God bless.
Indeed, Bosco! Great post for the Conversion of our earthy Apostle to the Gentiles! It’s well to remember that, despite his high and mystical insights, Paul could talk like the hoi polloi.
It’s always puzzled me why we ‘vulgarise’ bodily functions that are marvellous in their efficiency and also parts of the body, without which none of us would be here and by which most of humanity derives their chief form of pleasure.
Why aren’t the following words ‘vulgarised’in our speech: poverty, abuse, violence, corduroy etc?
Thanks, Steve. I think it is fascinating how the strongest expletives vary from culture to culture. English clearly has body-image issues, as you suggest, and I also point to in my post. In other cultures religion is a stronger focus. Your question is a good one. Thanks. Blessings.
Interesting. I just went and ploughed through the 20 or so English versions of teh bible on the bible gateway and the closest they come is “dung”.
Other variants have “sewer trash” or “garbage” or “dirt”. The greek version does indeed have the samw word as you and the closest I can see that I vaguely recall from my Latin days is the vulgates use of ‘feci’.
Excuse me won’t you Bosco whilst I go and offend my pastor! LOL
Yes, Stuart, the Message comes quite close. Blessings.
I sort of like “sewer trash” rude but perh not unreadable in Church????- but of course this is before we even start on Paul’s gag at Galatians 5:12…
Are you suggesting that the inspired word of God is unreadable in church, Nick? You are correct: Gal 5:12 is not read in church on Sundays! Blessings.
So Paul says his life is not worth a shit without Jesus Christ.
I remember how electrified our congregation was years ago when, from the pulpit, our curate used the word “bloody” as an emphatic.
Inspired by Steve above with “Why aren’t the following words ‘vulgarised’in our speech: poverty, abuse, violence, corduroy etc?”
Especially corduroy…
I also remember finding out what the filthy rags in Isaiah 64:6 were. No, most of the translations won’t help you with this one either.
Thanks, “ringbark”, for setting people off on a journey to explore Isaiah
Please use your ordinary name here – that is the practice of this site. Blessings.
My apologies – I’ve not commented here very much before.
No problem. Blessings.
Man, do I ever love this.